Monthly Archives: March 2012

God’s Omnipotent Nature is Not Contradictory: A Belated Followup pt. II

This is the third post related to God’s omnipotence and contradiction. The previous post can be found here, God’s Omnipotent Nature is Not Contradictory: A Belated Followup. The first post can be found here, God’s Omnipotent Nature is Not Contradictory.

Should God’s omnipotence allow Him to also do the logically impossible?

Jam’s response was that it should, by virtue of the meaning of omnipotence (no lack in power).

Let’s go with that, then. Yes, God can do the logically impossible.

Then the argument becomes:

Can God create a rock that He cannot lift? Answer: Yes

God creates the rock that He cannot lift, and then attempts to lift it. He cannot.

Jam says, “Aha! God is not omnipotent, and therefore not God.”

I say, “What do you mean? Of course God can lift it.”

God then lifts the rock.

You protest that God could’t then create a rock He cannot lift.

“What do you mean? Of course He cannot lift it”, I say. And then God cannot lift the rock.

“Well, that is a contradiction! He cannot both be able and unable to lift the rock!”, you declare.

But you said that God’s omnipotence should allow Him to do the logically impossible.

You cannot protest against God for doing the logically impossible if you assert that He should be able to! If you ride the “God’s omnipotence should allow Him to do the logically impossible” taxi, then you have to pay the fair at the other end! Otherwise you commit the taxicab fallacy whereby you only hold to certain premises throughout the parts of your argument that are convenient for you. But logic doesn’t allow this.

So, either God can or cannot do the logically impossible. If He cannot, then I must explain why that does not conflict with God’s omnipotence, as much as it appears that it would.

So:

Should God’s omnipotence allow Him to also do the logically impossible?

I said, no.

Let’s go with that, then. God cannot do the logically impossible.

Then the argument becomes:

Can God create a rock that He cannot lift? Answer: No.

Jam says, “Why not? He should be able to if He is omnipotent.”

Let’s experiment:

God creates a rock. He can lift it.

God creates a bigger rock. He can lift it.

God creates bigger and bigger rocks, but can always lift them.

Where does this stop? Or, better: How could this stop?

It could only stop with God creating something more powerful than omnipotence. But here is the problem of definitions again. It isn’t in any way a lack of power of God to form bigger and bigger rocks. God can always make bigger rocks, and God can always lift them. Forever and ever and ever and ever . . . So, even if we say “No” in answer to the question, it doesn’t limit God’s power.

Can God create a rock He cannot lift? No.

Does the inability of God to create a rock He cannot lift limit His power? No.

At any rate, the bigger problem is the question itself. Again, it is really asking if something can be better than perfect. It is, by definition, a nonsensical question.

So then: Is it possible for there to be anything greater than perfection? No.

If Perfection cannot create something greater than itself, does It cease to be Perfection? No.

Is it even reasonable, then, to ask Perfection to be better than Itself? No.

The Conclusion of the Matter

Should an omnipotent being be able to do the logically impossible?

Jam says, “Yes”. (Though he consistently refused to directly answer this, it is implied in the dilemma proposed and the only position possible to be taken that would propose to do damage to the coherence of the idea of God’s omnipotence.)

But if he says yes, then he has no argument.

If an omnipotent being should be able to do the logically impossible, then the cat is out of the bag I’m afraid. God both can and cannot create a rock He cannot lift. He both can and cannot lift any rock He creates, for God’s omnipotence, according to Jam, allows Him to do the logically impossible. Therefore when he says “yes”, he loses the argument, for he has nothing left to argue.

If Jam would like to change his answer to “no”, then we are in agreement and he loses his argument.

The original challenge was: Can God create a rock that He cannot lift? But that implies that an omnipotent being should be able to do the logically impossible, i.e., create something better than the best, or something more powerful than the most powerful, or something more omnipotent than simply omnipotent, which is all clearly nonsense.

But, if we just grant, for the sake of argument, that omnipotence should include the ability to actually do the logically impossible, then we have no basis left to accuse God of not being omnipotent because He can do the logically impossible, i.e., create a rock that He is both able and not able to lift.

You say, “But it’s a contradiction that God is both able and unable to create a rock that He cannot lift.”

I say, “Well, yes, it is a contradiction, but we’ve already allowed Him that because of His omnipotence.”

Advertisements

God’s Omnipotent Nature is Not Contradictory: A Belated Followup

In my arguments earlier in God’s Omnipotent Nature is Not Contradictory I purposed to defend the idea that the Christian concept of God is indeed coherent, and non-contradictory. Before making any arguments, I made some initial points. They were:

1) God is not a material being. Christians tend to believe that He is more analogous to a mind. 2) God is omnipresent. He is present everywhere, and there is nowhere where He is not present, either within or without the universe. 3) God is omnipotent. He is all powerful. It is important to note that this doesn’t mean God is simply the “most powerful” being, but omnipotent, or, without limit in power. 4) Christians do not believe that God’s omnipotence makes it possible for Him to do the logically impossible. For instance, God cannot make a round square, or create a married bachelor. This is not a limit on God’s omnipotence, but rather a simple fact that a thing cannot be both A and non A at the same time and in the same way.

Jam immediately took issue with points 3 and 4. He said that he thought point 3 was fine by itself, but that 4 then immediately contradicted it. And while I agree that to many, at first blush, it would appear he is correct, indeed he is not.

Note that I did anticipate at point 4 that some may balk. I gave a short explanation of what a logical contradiction would be, and then a very brief remark why even an omnipotent being could not violate this rule of non-contradiction. I will now explain a little further.

The law of non-contradiction (LNC) is that a thing cannot be both A and not A at the same time and in the same way. If a ball is all green, it cannot also be all white. It may be of mixed color, and therefore all green and white, but it cannot be all purely white and all purely green at the same time.

A car cannot also be a bus at the same time and in the same way. It may be a car that is shaped like a bus, or use some bus parts, but then it would simply be a hybrid, and not strictly one or the other, and therefore would not violate the law of non-contradiction. A car may be converted into a bus, but it could never be both at the same time; strictly a car and strictly a bus.

Interestingly, however, sometimes a van may be a bus, and a limousine may be a van. How? Well, in different cultures they use different words to describe the same type of vehicle. In Japan where I’m living, a van is a bus. But if a Japanese person went to the U.S., a bus would be a van. It could be the exact same model of vehicle, but they are referred to differently in different parts of the world. So, even though what something is never actually changes, it can have different words to identify it.

To state this as a positive rather than a negative is to say, simply, a thing is what it is. This is referred to as the law of identity (LOI). If a thing is a mixture of two things, then it is a mixture of two things. That’s just what it is. A thing is never, and can never be, what it is not. A thing is what it is and never what it is not.

So, how does this affect God’s omnipotence? It doesn’t. If God is omnipotent He also cannot do the logically impossible. Why? Because no matter what God does, that will be what He does. It will be what He did and not not what He did. Even for God, then, the LOI (law of identity) will hold, and by extension also the LNC (law of non-contradiction). If He does A, then it means necessarily that He didn’t do B. Interestingly, the logically impossible really only comes down to definitions, i.e., what we call a certain thing, event, or action.

If God made something totally unique and sent it to earth, something of totally unique materials and shape for instance, we may not know what it was, but it would still be what it is. Eventually some name would be attached to the object and then people would refer to it by that name. The name that it is called by will never change the thing. Even if we called the object water, for example, it would still be unique and not become water as we now know it.

So, lets look at a logical contradiction like a square circle. A proper square cannot also be a proper circle. It may be a hybrid of the two, perhaps with slightly rounded corners, but it cannot properly be both. So, the question would be whether or not an omnipotent God could create such a thing.

Can God make a square circle? No. But let’s think about this for a moment.

Firstly, can we even rightly imagine what a square circle would look like? No. If you can, please draw one. But, no, we cannot. However, for the sake of argument, let’s say that God did send this “something” to earth like earlier and that it was, indeed, a square circle. We should now begin to see the problem. If we perceive it to be a square, we will call it a square. If we perceive it to be a circle, we will call it a circle. But, even if by God’s standard it really is a square circle, we wouldn’t be able to perceive it or call it a square circle. Technically speaking, we could of course call it anything we liked, for it would be something unique that we’ve never seen before. We may call it water as per above, or we may for some reason call it a duck, or for another reason call it a surzzalupe. But if we called it a square circle, it would be pure luck.

You see, the problem is with definitions of what things are. When something appears to us as unique, not quite like a circle, and not quite like a square, we would give it some other name. A square circle cannot be a square, and cannot be a circle. It must be something else. It must be what it is. We could name and begin to call anything we want a square circle, and from then on square circles would be coherent. But it could not be a proper square or a proper circle. To be neither a square or a circle it must be unique.

So in what is probably an utterly too long and unnecessary attempt to show what is obvious, the problem is simply a definition problem. A circle is a circle. A square is a square. And a square circle is, or would be anyway, yet a third thing, not properly a square and not properly a circle, for if it were then it wouldn’t be a square circle but one of the other things. So square circles are possible only if we make them possible by defining what one would be. When we say that God cannot make a square circle, then, it is because we haven’t defined what one is, and cannot even conceive of one because of the two mutually exclusive (contradictory) terms, and not because God isn’t powerful enough to make anything. And just to refocus a bit, this is all going back to the logical contradiction that is proposed in asking if God can create a rock that He cannot lift. The challenge itself is a logical contradiction, as it boils down to asking the logically absurd question of whether anything can be better than the best, or greater than the greatest, or more perfect than perfect.

This is the sense in which God cannot do what is logically impossible. It isn’t a power limiting problem for God, but a definition limitation on our behalf. A thing will always be what it is. It will either be this, or that, or something else, even if God is directly responsible for making or doing it. It is up to us to define things, just as Adam did in the beginning.

There will be yet another post to tie up one loose end, and to show how truly ridiculous the position is that suggests it’s a logical impossibility for God to be omnipotent.

Why I Hate Religion, But Love Jesus Video: A Response

From an email I sent to a special young lady

Thanks for sending me the link to the video. I was soooo curious what would cause you to post that you hated organized religion. I had a lot of different ideas, but just couldn’t resist asking.

I think the video is interesting. Very generally, I agree. Interestingly also, however, is that there are a lot of people who are disagreeing with him (Jefferson or Jeff), and I also generally agree with them! Doesn’t that sound strange?

Well, probably the biggest reason is that people are working from different definitions and concepts of “religion”. In fact, they had better be (especially Jefferson) since the Bible does talk about pure religion; “Religion that is pure and undefiled before God, the Father, is this: to visit orphans and widows in their affliction, and to keep oneself unstained from the world.” – (James 1:27). So, there most definitely is such a thing as good and pure religion. We know too, however, that a lot of what we call religion today is certainly not of that type. Clearly, that is what Jefferson is getting at.

A bit of story: I share my testimony probably a little differently than most people. I say I got saved when I was 4yrs old. I still remember the day very clearly, in Sunday school in a smallish Baptist church. Looking back and knowing what I know now, probably a lot of those people were the type of people that I would regard as “religious” today, and wasting time doing so much activity with so little effectiveness in the kingdom. But…I got saved there! They taught me about Jesus!

Nonetheless, I lived “religiously” growing up. I kept my Bible like a good little Christian, and never read it. But, I really believed in Jesus and was definitely saved. God spared my life a few times when I could have easily died. Finally, He did get my attention one day after I went through some tough times. God has performed some real miracles in my life. One day, while cleaning my barracks room in the Marine Corps, I moved my Bible to dust around it…and decided to flip it open and read a verse or two. Ha! I read a “verse or two” for a few months! I couldn’t put it down! It spoke so clearly to me it was crazy! All I did for a few months was work, eat, sleep, and read my Bible. Many days I skipped eating so I could read more. On the weekends I drove somewhere to be alone and slept in my car and just read and prayed.

Anyway, I asked God to give me some Christian friends, and the next day, at work, God kept speaking very clearly to me to go to BC street after work. BC means bars and clubs, and is where military guys would hang out at night. I didn’t want to frequent that place anymore, though, but God made it clear that I had to go. I did, and I miraculously met two missionaries and told them that God told me to go and meet them! They completely freaked out (as in they thought I was a nut…which is true, but beside the point 😉 ). Anyhow, they introduced me to their Christian friends, and so the night just after praying for Christian friends, I had a bunch! I ended up going to one of the missionary girls’ church…

And during worship service, Jesus stood in front of me. I couldn’t see Him physically, but somehow I could see Him. I told Him, “This is it Lord, I give myself to You.” And BAM! I got hit with (what I now know to be) the Holy Spirit! He entered through my head, rushed through my whole body, and this awesome sensation hovered around my feet. I was completely filled. The song we were singing had something about bowing down, and I wanted to do it sooo badly, but it was my first time at the church and didn’t know anyone except that missionary, so I didn’t; but not because I was afraid of kneeling in front of the people, but because I could feel something ready to burst from my belly if I did. Without knowing that there even was such a thing as speaking in tongues, I could feel it within me. I knew that if I knelt down I wouldn’t be able to stop it from coming out, loud and proud, as it were. So I didn’t kneel (I really wish I would have).

I call that experience being “born again”. So, I was saved at 4, but born again at 19.

Now, this also happened in a church, or, in the midst of “organized religion”. So, it is a little too broad a brush, I think, to say that one hates organized religion (and I’m not picking on you or anyone else who may say that…I’ve both said it and still do hate what often goes on in the name of religion). All that said, however, I grew over the years to become fed up with the “church” and “religion”. There was just so much garbage that it could potentially make anyone go insane. There are so many traditions that are just unbiblical. But I’ve also come to see this in a more balanced light.

It’s not that most churches are bad per se, but that they lack so much good. What they do, often, is somewhat good, but it just falls so short of what it could and probably should be. Interestingly, that is the very idea of the word for sin, to fall short. The Bible also says that it is sin to know what we should do but not actually do it. So, I don’t look at church or “organized religion” as necessarily bad, but just lacking so much good that it can be sickening.

I had an opportunity to go to and help out a new church several years ago where the pastor had, really, gotten rid of his religion. He really did. He got tired of the traditions and things and just left it all and started living “non-religiously”. It was great…for a while. But you know what? It didn’t last for very long. And I’ve come to learn something else. It can’t last! People will always have something that they believe in; a right way of doing things, and pursue that. What else can they do? It is inevitable, and necessary, and even good. If right and wrong exist objectively, then it is really our duty to find the best way, the right way, and live fully in it. But that is exactly how religion gets “religious” and “organized”. The young man in the video, Jefferson, has his own religion right now, and he had it even while making the video…and his religion is actually what made him make the video. But you know what else? That’s a good thing! And even though I can’t give a full and hearty Amen to the video, I applaud him for standing up for what he believes and putting something on the line.

I think I’ve come to see that the biggest problem for all of us is that we get stuck thinking “our way” is the only way. We need to get Romans 14 burned into our skulls.

There are other reasons I have for not being able to fully embrace the video, but maybe another time.

Please listen to the video below. It’s a favorite song from way back.

God Bless Ya Little Sista (and all else who may stumble along here),
Keep Lovin’ Jesus,
B.